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Post by John A. Casler on Feb 25, 2007 12:03:31 GMT -8
Hi All,
This is a new board. Please feel free to post your ROGUE HIT programs (formerly called Direct Compensation Training) to this board and I will critique and advise you on how to get the best results. My intentions are to eventually make this a "pay per use" service (let me assure you the results are worth it) but I need a couple of you to get some good results and show them.
Please know that this is not a "flavor of the month" program and you need be serious enough to be ready to devote at least 6 months to acheiving the best condition of your life.
Feel free to tell others of this board if you like.
Please post your program like this:
Monday: Chest and Back = Week 1 (Feb 5th 2007)
Set #1 = Bent Over Rows 135# x 30 Set #1 = Barbell Bench Press 135# x 30
Set #2 = Bent Over Rows 185# x 15 Set #2 = Barbell Bench Press 185# x 15
Set #3 = Bent Over Rows 205# x 10 Set #3 = Barbell Bench Press 205# x 10
Wed: Legs and Torso = Week 1 (Feb 7th 2007)
Set #1 = Reverse Loaded Squats 100# x 30 (Casler Cable Crunch) Set #1 = Barbell Squats 135# x 30
Set #2 = Reverse Loaded Squats 100# x 30 (Casler Cable Crunch) Set #2 = Barbell Squats 185# x 20
Set #3 = Reverse Loaded Squats 100# x 30 (Casler Cable Crunch) Set #3 = Barbell Squats 225# x 15
Set # 1 = Standing Calf 300# x 15 Set # 2 = Standing Calf 300# x 12 Set # 3 = Standing Calf 300# x 12 Set # 4 = Standing Calf 300# x 10 Set # 5 = Standing Calf 300# x 10
Friday: Arms = Week 1 (Feb 9th 2007)
Set #1 = Standing Barbell Curls 75# x 30 Set #1 = Close Grip Barbell Bench Press 85# x 30
Set #2 = Standing Barbell Curls 105# x 15 Set #2 = Close Grip Barbell Bench Press 135# x 15
Set #3 = Standing Barbell Curls 135# x 10 Set #3 = Close Grip Barbell Bench Press 185# x 10
Then simply copy and paste the results of the next workout below and change the dates, so I can see your progress and advise.
TO POST YOUR PROGRAM SIMPLY HIT "REPLY" TO THIS POST, AND POST YOUR PROGRAM. TO UPDATE IT, SIMPLY CLICK ON "modify" and THEN POST YOUR PROGRESS BELOW EACH WEEK.
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Post by killroy70 on Mar 17, 2007 14:57:11 GMT -8
Mr. Casler,
I attempted using your system, Direct Compensation Training, around a year and a half ago. I gleaned as much info as I could about the system from posts you made the the Supertraining list. Now, I felt the info I was able to obtain left me a lot of questions about how to properly implement what you suggested.
Here's what I gathered from your description about DCT on Supertraining:
*choose antagonistic muscle groups and work them in an alternating fashion, leaving as much rest as necessary to attack each set with maximum effort.
*perform 3 sets/exercise, with a set/rep scheme of 20/10/5
*the recommended split was: monday: chest/back tues: off wed: legs/lower back/abs thurs: off Friday: arms Sat: off sun: off
Now, with that info, I was still left wondering how to construct a program. Here are the questions I was left with:
1) how many exercises/muscle group are recommended?
2) what set/rep scheme should be used for exercises performed after the initial pairing (the first 6 alternating sets of 20/10/5)
3) what kind of progression method should be used with exercises after the initial pairing? -- I know you said one should use their 20RM/10RM/5RM for the initial pairing and add small increments each subsequent workout. But what about other exercises - if other exercises are recommended at all?
Example chest/back day: A1) Bench press 135x20 185x10 215x5
A2) Parallel grip chins: BWx20 BW+25x10 BW+50x5
??[What Next???]
Let me give you some background:
I'm 28 years old, perfectly healthy with no existing injuries/limitations 6'2", 200 lbs, 11% bodyfat
As far as nutrition and supplementation goes, I'm currently following Dr. John Berardi's Precision Nutrition system. Basically, I'm eating every 2-3 hours, lots of protein, tons of veggies, fruit, plent of "good fat," etc.. I also follow Dr. John Ivy's recommendations about pre-during-post workout nutrition from his book "Nutrient Timing." Basically, I consume 30 grams High GI carbs + 10 grams whey protein 30 min before training, the same during training, and 80 grams high GI carbs + 30 grams whey immediately after training. Then, one hour later, consume a more "normal meal," consisting of lots of protein and some complex carbs. The only supplements I take are protein powder, a vitamin/mineral supplement, and fish oil caps.
As far as training, I'm coming off of a 6 week program that utilized undulating periodization. Here's what I've been doing:
Monday: A) Trap bar DL 5x5 B1) bench press 4x5 B2) parallel grip chins 4x5 C1) decline parallel/close grip DB press 4x5 C2) EZ bar curls 4x5
Wednesday: A1) Split squat 2x12 A2) glute/ham raise 2x12 B1) incline DB press 2x12 B2) supinated/close grip chins 2x12 C1) DB upright row 2x12 C2) rotator cuff work D1) Decline DB tri extensions D2) Incline supinated grip DB curls
Friday: A) Squat 4x8 B1) Dips 3x8 B2) Wide grip pronated chins 3x8 C1) standing overhead BB press 3x8 C2) DB row 3x8 D1) lying BB tri extensions (with chains added for accomodating resistance) 3x8 D2) Incline hammer curl 3x8
this has been a pretty productive cycle for me, but I'm still very intrigued by seeing what would happen if I used your system, the RIGHT WAY.
Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I'd be more than willing to provide you with any information you might want to gauge the effectiveness of your system on my training - with muscular hypertrophy/strength gains being my priorities. Starting weights, daily progressions, whatever you want to know, you name it. I appreciate any help.
Sincerely,
Ken Manning ken52@epix.net (570) 881-5421
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Post by John A. Casler on Mar 30, 2007 12:57:12 GMT -8
Mr. Casler, I attempted using your system, Direct Compensation Training, around a year and a half ago. I gleaned as much info as I could about the system from posts you made the the Supertraining list. Now, I felt the info I was able to obtain left me a lot of questions about how to properly implement what you suggested. Here's what I gathered from your description about DCT on Supertraining: *choose antagonistic muscle groups and work them in an alternating fashion, leaving as much rest as necessary to attack each set with maximum effort. Hi Ken, So good to hear from you and so sorry for the lag in response. I have been out of town with a few private seminars. This is correct. While the system has the flexibility to be used with differing configurations, the alternating antagonists option offers the most effective method, since it offer a longer rest period between each bodypart/muscle area. That is, when you perform a set of say Pulldowns after a set of Benches, you get almost twice the "rest" between sets of Benches. *perform 3 sets/exercise, with a set/rep scheme of 20/10/5 That is the general rep schematic, however, I have gone as high as 30 or more reps in some exercises to great success. My pulldown was a good example, where I reached 30 reps with 330#. So do be open to increasing the "reps" if you find that you can. (even with what many consider heavy weights) Additionally, since you are only training each "Key Exercise" 1 X a week, you might find that you can go 4 sets. This might look like this: 30/15/8/4-5 *the recommended split was: monday: chest/back tues: off wed: legs/lower back/abs thurs: off Friday: arms Sat: off sun: off That is correct. This allows a "priority" to upper body (being trained 2 x a week) and allows 2 full days rest before chest and back. However, some may "reverse" the Arms/Shoulders and Chest/Back days, finding the 3 days, even with legs in the middle, was better for them. Now, with that info, I was still left wondering how to construct a program. Here are the questions I was left with: 1) how many exercises/muscle group are recommended? 2) what set/rep scheme should be used for exercises performed after the initial pairing (the first 6 alternating sets of 20/10/5) 3) what kind of progression method should be used with exercises after the initial pairing? -- I know you said one should use their 20RM/10RM/5RM for the initial pairing and add small increments each subsequent workout. But what about other exercises - if other exercises are recommended at all? Example chest/back day: A1) Bench press 135x20 185x10 215x5 A2) Parallel grip chins: BWx20 BW+25x10 BW+50x5 That is up to you and your recovery abilities. I was able to do 3-4 pump sets, to further stimulate the metabolic support systems to grow. Some might find that level too much to recover from. If you eat and supplement smart, and always get 8+ hours of sleep each night, then you might be able to do as I did. In fact, I did HICP (High INTENSITY CardioPulmonary) 3 days a week also. But if you don't find yourself recovering, and are too sore (DOMS) to sleep, then cut back. ??[What Next???] Let me give you some background: I'm 28 years old, perfectly healthy with no existing injuries/limitations 6'2", 200 lbs, 11% bodyfat As far as nutrition and supplementation goes, I'm currently following Dr. John Berardi's Precision Nutrition system. Basically, I'm eating every 2-3 hours, lots of protein, tons of veggies, fruit, plent of "good fat," etc.. I also follow Dr. John Ivy's recommendations about pre-during-post workout nutrition from his book "Nutrient Timing." Basically, I consume 30 grams High GI carbs + 10 grams whey protein 30 min before training, the same during training, and 80 grams high GI carbs + 30 grams whey immediately after training. Then, one hour later, consume a more "normal meal," consisting of lots of protein and some complex carbs. The only supplements I take are protein powder, a vitamin/mineral supplement, and fish oil caps. As far as training, I'm coming off of a 6 week program that utilized undulating periodization. Here's what I've been doing: Monday: A) Trap bar DL 5x5 B1) bench press 4x5 B2) parallel grip chins 4x5 C1) decline parallel/close grip DB press 4x5 C2) EZ bar curls 4x5 Wednesday: A1) Split squat 2x12 A2) glute/ham raise 2x12 B1) incline DB press 2x12 B2) supinated/close grip chins 2x12 C1) DB upright row 2x12 C2) rotator cuff work D1) Decline DB tri extensions D2) Incline supinated grip DB curls Friday: A) Squat 4x8 B1) Dips 3x8 B2) Wide grip pronated chins 3x8 C1) standing overhead BB press 3x8 C2) DB row 3x8 D1) lying BB tri extensions (with chains added for accomodating resistance) 3x8 D2) Incline hammer curl 3x8 this has been a pretty productive cycle for me, but I'm still very intrigued by seeing what would happen if I used your system, the RIGHT WAY. Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I'd be more than willing to provide you with any information you might want to gauge the effectiveness of your system on my training - with muscular hypertrophy/strength gains being my priorities. Starting weights, daily progressions, whatever you want to know, you name it. I appreciate any help. Sincerely, Ken Manning ken52@epix.net (570) 881-5421 If you still have questions feel free to call 888-202-3126
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 2, 2007 3:48:22 GMT -8
I started a new 4-week cycle similar to what I posted above. I dropped the reps a bit, so my workouts look like:
Monday (full body) 8x3
Wednesday (full body) 3x10
Friday (full body) 4x6
I will give you a call so that maybe you could clear up some of the questions I have about Rogue HIT training. Maybe after we speak, I'll draw up a program and post it here on the site and you can let me know what you think. I haven't performed a split routine in quite a while, so I'm actually really looking foward into getting into something new. Once I've got my program laid out and set, I'll post all daily workouts and progress and make notes about any observations I have. Thanks for the reply, and I look forward to talking to you soon.
Ken
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 6, 2007 5:25:21 GMT -8
Ok, John, I decided to jump into the program today. Don't judge me on the weights performed just yet, as that first high-rep set was a killer. I haven't performed more than 10-12 reps for a given exercise in god knows how long!
Anyway, today was arms day. I'll post what I did and then submit a few questions:
A1) Dips BWx23 BW+35x15 BW+50x13 BW+75x8
A2) BB curl 65x30 80x19 95x10 105x6
B1) Decline DB tri extensions 45x6 45x6 45x6 *weight of one DB
B2) EZ bar reverse curl 55x6 55x6 55x6
Questions/Notes:
*I think from now on I'm going to change the set/rep scheme of my auxillary exercises to something more like 15/10/5 or 12/8/4. I know you said not to focus on them too much, as that migh take away from the two "core movements," so I'll refrain from going "to failure" and instead, perhaps, rotate exercises every 3-4 weeks as I start approaching failure. Comments?
*Being that this is "arms day," I was wondering where shoulders fit in? Now, perhaps the anterior delt gets plenty of stimulation from the dips, but what about the lateral/posterior heads? Again - perhaps the posterior head will get enough stimulation from the back exercises, but should I throw in some DB upright rows or lateral raises? Or is this all unneccessary?
Thanks,
Ken
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 9, 2007 5:03:03 GMT -8
4/9
chest/back
A1) Bench press 125x30 160x17 180x11 200x4
A2) Neutral grip pulldown
125x30 155x17 175x12 200x6
B1) Incline DB fly-press combo 40x10 40x10
B2) DB pullover 27.5x10 27.5x10
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 9, 2007 5:16:29 GMT -8
Ok, John, I decided to jump into the program today. Don't judge me on the weights performed just yet, as that first high-rep set was a killer. I haven't performed more than 10-12 reps for a given exercise in god knows how long! Anyway, today was arms day. I'll post what I did and then submit a few questions: A1) Dips BWx23 BW+35x15 BW+50x13 BW+75x8 A2) BB curl 65x30 80x19 95x10 105x6 B1) Decline DB tri extensions 45x6 45x6 45x6 *weight of one DB B2) EZ bar reverse curl 55x6 55x6 55x6 Questions/Notes: *I think from now on I'm going to change the set/rep scheme of my auxillary exercises to something more like 15/10/5 or 12/8/4. I know you said not to focus on them too much, as that migh take away from the two "core movements," so I'll refrain from going "to failure" and instead, perhaps, rotate exercises every 3-4 weeks as I start approaching failure. Comments? *Being that this is "arms day," I was wondering where shoulders fit in? Now, perhaps the anterior delt gets plenty of stimulation from the dips, but what about the lateral/posterior heads? Again - perhaps the posterior head will get enough stimulation from the back exercises, but should I throw in some DB upright rows or lateral raises? Or is this all unneccessary? Thanks, Ken Hi Ken, Regarding the delts: You might find a "super set" of Dips/Barbell High Pulls during the "secondary" pump group to be effective. These should only be for "pump" and not to failure or RM. Weights should be comfortable and not relevant to anything except "feel". Or you could try "seated presses" SS with "pulldowns".
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 9, 2007 5:29:28 GMT -8
4/9 chest/back A1) Bench press 125x30 160x17 180x11 200x4 A2) Neutral grip pulldown 125x30 155x17 175x12 200x6 B1) Incline DB fly-press combo 40x10 40x10 B2) DB pullover 27.5x10 27.5x10 Hi Ken, Looks good. Remember, the main reason to go with 4 sets, is that you get to such a large weight for the first set that you have to. That is. 3 sets can be equally effective when weights are small enough, but when you get to large loads, the body needs a weight low enough to not suffer damage during the forces of the first set. I use the example of my pulldowns, where the first set might have been 300# x 30. Starting much higher than that for 20 would have been TOO MUCH, and my performance would have suffered. So be aware that sets 2 and 3 seem very close, to the point that they could be combined for a single 15 rep set. But this is "fine tuning" and you will be doing it for a few weeks, until you settle in to the routine.
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Post by carruthersjam on Apr 10, 2007 9:07:37 GMT -8
Great message forum, I’m looking forward to participating in discussions and learning from members! One of my colleagues based his training from John's direct compensation training and has achieved some phenomenal results especially on the squat (30 reps x 150 kg "warm-up" at BW 79kg), lat pull downs, and shoulder press etc. I’ll post some figures as soon as I can.
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 10, 2007 15:48:22 GMT -8
Carruthersjam - the moderator from the Supertraining Group I presume? If so, I'm very excited to see you here on John's forum!
John - after reading your comments I definitely understand what you're saying. As you noted, I'm in the process of "fine tuning," specifically in regards to what kind of weights I should be using, etc.
For example, when I performed my first set of dips, which I repped for 23 reps with my bodyweight, it was hard as hell, and thought much of any jump in weights would compromise my ability to get any decent number of reps on my second set. Of course, in hindsight, I could have done without that set of BW+35, which I got for 17 reps (followed up by a set of BW+50x12). Perhaps if i just jumped to, say, 55-60lbs + BW, I may have achieved a better set, perhaps getting 15+ reps.
Tomorrow will be my first leg day using the system. I have yet to find a cambered by at any of the fitness stores in my area, so I might just order one off the net - I know Dave Tates company, elite fitness systems, sells them. As I told you a while back, because my lower back often bothers me during back squats I switched over to elevated trap bar deadlifts - elevated to allow my thighs to at least hit parallel. I doubt this will work using your system simply because peforming 3-4 all-out sets would probably overwork my upper back and hinder my results during my chest/back day. The last time I worked this execise (about 2 weeks ago) I performed 8 sets of 3 reps with 375. Anyway, I'm going to give squats another go, perhaps that first set will do the trick as far as preparing my lower back for the heavier weigths. We'll see.
Post my workout tomorrow morning.
Ken
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 11, 2007 12:02:59 GMT -8
Great message forum, I’m looking forward to participating in discussions and learning from members! One of my colleagues based his training from John's direct compensation training and has achieved some phenomenal results especially on the squat (30 reps x 150 kg "warm-up" at BW 79kg), lat pull downs, and shoulder press etc. I’ll post some figures as soon as I can. Hi Jaime, And welcome. and thanks for the kind words. As you can see this is a little different type of board to some of the others, and I started it to offer a format to provide information about some of the "projects" I am involved in, and to offer a board where our contemporaries and colleagues can submit interesting ideas, concepts and systems, to consider. As you can see, we are new and I haven't been promoting the board yet and I am looking to get Lillian involved and she has been in Europe. Thanks for coming on board ;D
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 11, 2007 17:22:40 GMT -8
Today's leg/torso workout:
A1) Squat 135x30 185x15 215x10 235x5
A2) Reverse loaded squats 125x30 145x30 160x30 160x30
B1) Glute/ham raise BWx20 BWx18
B2) calf raises 135x20 135x20
Notes:
*taking it easy weight-wise on squats for the first few workouts to see how my back responds. Pain-free lifting today. Though I found I was getting winded on the first two sets, had to take a few pauses for some deep breaths.
*Again, still individualizing sets/loads, etc. So, perhaps next week I'll shoot for 3 sets and load up the weight a bit more.
***For squats, the weigths were fine, as I discovered (sadly) today that conditioning seems to be the limiting factor here. For example, 135 is usually just a quick "few-rep" warm up for my workout, but today, when I repped the 30, I had to pause several times to catch my breath even though the weight felt light and easy. Hopefully this will be rectified by simply pounding away every week, increasing the weights and relentlessly maintaining my rep goals.
*reverse loaded squats - felt great, found a good way to anchor my feet. My abdominal muscles were screaming halfway through the third set and all the way through the final set. Movement felt good - natural - which I was happy with since this was my firs time performing it.
**Question: For reverse loaded squats, is it recommended to work up in weight/down in reps from set to set? I only ask because in the example routine provided in this thread I noticed all sets were to 30 reps. So, for today's workout that's how I played it.
Ken
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 11, 2007 17:48:14 GMT -8
Hi Ken,
Hey that all looks great. You are correct to take is slow and feel your way in the beginning. This will strengthen all the weaker elements in the chain, so that you can ramp up the intensity as you begin to approach PR's on each set.
Always post every PR with a *, so I and others can see your progress. It doesn't have to be a set to failure, but if it is the best you have ever done, in that set, with that weight, it is a PR.
And don't worry about rest/pause to catch your breath. No Problem. I ususally, as we spoke about on the phone, divide the sets up into stages anyhow.
Like I said on the first 30 rep squat set, I usually do the first 10, and then look at the second 10, and then 5 and 5, with the last 5 being the ones I'm after.
160 x 30 in the reverse squat is very good!! Is it a regualr lat machine? Isn't that close to bodyweight?
You can experiment with how high you wish to go, but I don't think it is wise to approach it like the squat progressions.
My use of that exercise is to develop torso mechanisms that are very deconditioned, and to create a cyclic type of decompression antagonist to the squat load on the discs.
I'd say slowly take the weights up in the squat (5-10# a week)
I know that doesn't sound like much, but in 6 weeks you could be:
!95# x 30 and 295# x 5
And 6 weeks later
255 x 30 355 x 5
However don't rush those. If you find 5# jumps allow continuued progress and PR's use 5#.
Just plan on 9-12 months of progress on most every set, most every workout.
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 12, 2007 14:50:53 GMT -8
hey John,
The lat pulldown setup I use is a standard plate-loaded cable lat pulldown machine. I like it better than the weight stack type due to the fact that it's much more versatile and you can add much or as little weight as you like. I currently weigh around 195, so I think I'll be getting close to using that for my reverse loaded squats very soon. 160 felt good, and since it was the first time I've used the execise, I'm hoping for some intial quick improvement.
And as far as weight progression in the squat (and other execises), if I can consistently add 5 lbs every week for a couple of months I would be ecstatic. Certain lifts of mine, especially horizontal pressing movements, have been platued - d**n near stagnant - for quite some time. So for, say, the bench press, if I could add 2.5lbs/week over a couple of months, that would be huge for me.
I do have one question for you about my upcoming back workout this monday. All I hear about is the superiority of using chins instead of pulldowns when working the back in a vertical plane. So, I was thinking of switching from nuetral grip pulldowns to nuetral grip chins. The main concern I have is that I could probably max out at around 18 chins with my bodyweight. So, a workout might look like:
BWx18 BW+35x10 BW+55x5
What do you think? Would I be better suited to keep on performing pulldowns, which enable me to crank out more reps on that first set?
I do have to, although the workouts have been delightfully painful thus far, I find myself really looking forward to the next workout. tomorrow is my arms/shoulder workout, and I'm already gearing up to surpass every weight/rep amount/number I achieved last workout. And I'm going to implement your suggestion and throw high pulls into the rotation:
A1) Dips A2) BB curls A3) high pulls
should be fun!
thanks,
Ken
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 13, 2007 7:48:01 GMT -8
Today's arm workout:
A1) Dips BWx26 BW+55x14 (getting close to a PR here) BW+80x8
A2) BB curls 70x30 90x15 110x5
B1) Decline DB ext 40x12 B2) EZ reverse curl 70x12 B3) high pulls 135x14
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