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Post by killroy70 on Apr 21, 2007 15:37:44 GMT -8
John,
In reading your posts I find it interesting that you were able to reach such phenominal heights of strength, power generation, and endurance by sort of "throwing caution to the wind" and just approaching your training as an all-out effort all the time.
After I quit using "classic HIT" some 7 or 8 years ago, I've used program upon program, so many different periodization schemes and training philosophies, and have very little to show for it. For how long I've been training and how dedicated I've been, I feel that I should be so much further ahead than where I'm at. Perhaps I've personally sabotaged my own progress by constantly switching methods, rotating exercises, and spending the majority of my time using submaximal weigthts. Perhaps I've also fallen victim to being overly cautious about entering a state of "overtraining," that I've failed to really challenge myself.
Although I only have a handful of "rogue HIT" workouts under my belt, I am fast approaching some all-time bests in certain lifts. In dips, for example, I performed 55x14 and 85x6 this past workout -- these were all out efforts where complete physical "failure" was reached on the 15th and 7th rep of each set, respectively. A month or two ago I would probably back off and try to ramp up the weights over a few weeks to try to surpass those "maximum efforts" by a few pounds or so. Now I'm trying to beat those numbers every workout.
I'm anxious to see where I'll be 5-9 months from now....
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Post by carruthersjam on Apr 22, 2007 4:23:32 GMT -8
I think/know these types of workouts are extremely motivational and conducive for "growth" - prior to working out it gives me the jitters.
Ken Jalaski noted: Goal based workouts. In other words, one of the worst things we should hear from an athlete is: "what are we doing today." Kids like order. No mental preparation often means no quality physical performance. Knowing in advance what the day's session will involve helps athletes come to practice focused on the tasks ahead of them.
Jamie noted: Set achievable yet realistic goals / targets. Siff (2005) notes:
"..if a goal is highly attractive and you believe strongly that it is within your reach, the Motivational Force driving you will be very strong. However, if a goal is extremely attractive, but you believe it to be far outside your reach, you will experience a small Motivational Force and put in minimal effort to attain that goal."
Keep tasks relatively challenging but reasonable level of difficulty. Noteworthy is the fact that that "expectancy" and "value" are said to multiply, hence if an individual gives the a "value" score of zero, then motivation will be zero however large the "expectancy" score (Petty, 2006)..
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 22, 2007 8:35:17 GMT -8
John, In reading your posts I find it interesting that you were able to reach such phenominal heights of strength, power generation, and endurance by sort of "throwing caution to the wind" and just approaching your training as an all-out effort all the time. After I quit using "classic HIT" some 7 or 8 years ago, I've used program upon program, so many different periodization schemes and training philosophies, and have very little to show for it. For how long I've been training and how dedicated I've been, I feel that I should be so much further ahead than where I'm at. Perhaps I've personally sabotaged my own progress by constantly switching methods, rotating exercises, and spending the majority of my time using submaximal weigthts. Perhaps I've also fallen victim to being overly cautious about entering a state of "overtraining," that I've failed to really challenge myself. Although I only have a handful of "rogue HIT" workouts under my belt, I am fast approaching some all-time bests in certain lifts. In dips, for example, I performed 55x14 and 85x6 this past workout -- these were all out efforts where complete physical "failure" was reached on the 15th and 7th rep of each set, respectively. A month or two ago I would probably back off and try to ramp up the weights over a few weeks to try to surpass those "maximum efforts" by a few pounds or so. Now I'm trying to beat those numbers every workout. I'm anxious to see where I'll be 5-9 months from now.... Please know that I trained with "intensity" beyond what I had ever used before, but I did not throw "caution to the wind", in fact I was even more cautious, due to the loads. If I felt a strange "twinge", I fully evaluated it, and made the decision to either abort, back off, or move on. There were several times, that I simply dumped the remaining sets, sacrificing them to safety and continued progress. (remember you have a whole week to heal, and healing a strain, is easier than healing an injury) I remember, my forearms were taking a beating, gripping the lat bar for 50 or 60 very heavy reps, and I began to develop inflamation at the elbow joint. This lead to having to thoroughly warming up the forearms before the exercise, and changing grips to reduce the stress. So while to some outside observing, it may appear that I was not cautious simply because of the speed and weights used, but in fact I was MORE cautious. Now that you are "underway" here are a few more comments: * Do not begin a set until you are physically and mentally ready, and have a complete plan in your mind on how you will "conquer" the weight, and get the rep goal. * Each set is as important as the next. Some don't understand the connection between the higher reps and the lower, but it is DIRECT. In order to succeed with using heavy weights for higher reps, you must move those weights as fast as possible within the framework of non-injury form. This means learning to accellerate and decellerate weights properly. So rep speed will be faster than normal. This IS CRITICAL to the system, because, moving lighter weights quickly shows the muscle, the same or higher loads than some of the heavier loads, that you cannot move as quickly. It is a method of using a lighter more controllable weight (even though eventually it will be heavy) to acheive significant loading forces, to the muscle or body part. The good news is that it loads the system, at the key area of the SSC. That is at the end of the eccentric action as it transtions to the concentric. This technique also causes very large motor impulses, that then excite the CNS for the 2nd and 3rd sets that are heavier. It is a type of Post Tetanic Reflex or Post Tetanic Facilitation. This then is how the 3-4 sets performed in this manner create a "DIRECT COMPENSATION" to the goal. I think many use this concept like Simmons on "speed day" training. But with all this push to move the loads heavier it must be known that this is an extreme "learning" situation, where you learn to use a weight to load the body the way you want. Great care and caution must be used to recognized potential injuries or areas of over stress, that could develop into injuries. INJURIES CAN STOP ALL PROGRESS!!! If you find that an area doesn't feel quite right, then step back, and perfrom a light warm up set of 30-50 reps before starting your real sets. Most of the time this will take care of preparing the area for the large loadings it will be subjected to. You will reach a point, that this may be nessessary much of the time. Let me assure you, it was rather daunting to approach a Lat Machine with 330# for the first set, and attack it with the Intensity needed to acheive 30 reps. The beauty is that if you have your "head" right, the weights just simply move, as you command them. Just allow your body to grow, and reach its potential, driven by your focused desire and intensity to explore your limits.
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 23, 2007 5:25:48 GMT -8
John,
I took your suggestions to heart in today's chest/back workout. Especially in regard to pulldowns - I really "wedged" myself in there, felt very solid.
A1) Bench press
135x30 185x10 205x4
A2) Nuetral grip pulldowns
135x30 180x14 210x7
B1) Incline DB combo fly-press 45x10 45x8
B2) Straight arm lat pushdown
80x10 80x8
Notes:
*Bench press. 135 for 30 felt great, could have done maybe 4 or 5 more, felt much more solid than last week's 130x30. But that second set I'm just drowning. Next week I'm either going to:
a) Make my second set lighter so that there's not such a large discrepency between my first and second set
or
b) add another intermediate set, perhaps 140x30 165x15 190x10 205x5
**I think where I'm getting stuck is that I'm jumping 50+ pounds from set one to set 2, but then only 20 pounds to set 3. I'm finding that I'm feeling unprepared for that second set. Maybe if I made the weight jumps a bit more consistent, it would be working out better. Perhaps next week:
140x30 175x15 205x5
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 25, 2007 6:57:23 GMT -8
Today's leg workout:
A1) Squat
155x30 205x15 255x5
A2) Reverse loaded squat
170x30 170x30 170x28
Notes:
*Squats went well, though with that last set I feel like I'm still getting accustomed to squatting without a belt. But, all in all, sets felt good, lots of heavy breathing!!
*thinking about maybe ramping up the weight a bit with reverse loaded squats. this execise feels great - thinking about maybe doing sets of 30, 20, 12. Trying to get that last set today of 170 for 30 reps was tough as hell. My abdominal muscles and hip flexors were zapped!
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 25, 2007 10:38:35 GMT -8
John, **I think where I'm getting stuck is that I'm jumping 50+ pounds from set one to set 2, but then only 20 pounds to set 3. I'm finding that I'm feeling unprepared for that second set. Maybe if I made the weight jumps a bit more consistent, it would be working out better. Perhaps next week: Yes, 50# jumps are HUGE. Part of the reason for that now, is that you haven't developed the "strengh/power" in the lower weights to start higher. Just remember to "attack" the weights, but take the progress slow and in small steps. All you want is to match or slightly exceed your PR each session. Even if you only make progress in "one" of the sets only, you have just had the best workout with those loads in your life. ;D
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 25, 2007 15:53:00 GMT -8
Today's leg workout: A1) Squat 155x30 205x15 255x5 A2) Reverse loaded squat 170x30 170x30 170x28 Notes: *Squats went well, though with that last set I feel like I'm still getting accustomed to squatting without a belt. But, all in all, sets felt good, lots of heavy breathing!! *thinking about maybe ramping up the weight a bit with reverse loaded squats. this execise feels great - thinking about maybe doing sets of 30, 20, 12. Trying to get that last set today of 170 for 30 reps was tough as hell. My abdominal muscles and hip flexors were zapped! Yes, The goal in the squats is to strengthen the Torso to be able to safely handle the weights to be used in the future. Don't let the legs get ahead of the Torso. Each rep should be a study in "stability". That is, making the kinetic path (chain) from bar to feet, so rigid and stable that you can apply full force. Unstable and painful links in the chain will inhibit your progress. Looks like your "reverse squat" loads are coming up nicely. When we used to run and climb on all fours, we had strength in this chain, but it has become de-conditioned. Re-conditioning it has a good effect on Torso Strength. Focus on "rockhard" abs during all heavy lifting, bending, and twisting. It is amazing just how much force you can generate when you learn how to make the body a "rigid and stable" platform. Imagine trying to do a clean or snatch on a trampoline, which has "give" or instability, compared to standing on a lifting platform. The CNS will naturally "inhibit" you on the trampoline, and allow greater force ouput on the solid lifting platform. All aspects of lifting large loads have to do with having a secure stable base and grip on the load. And every segment that has to handle, tranfer, or supply force, to it must be stable and able to manage that task. Simple things like "gripping" a bar harder can make a big difference to full potential. Anyhow, take it slow and focus "most" on the first set of higher reps. As that advances and goes up, it will DIRECTLY affect the abiliities above it.
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Post by carruthersjam on Apr 27, 2007 0:23:47 GMT -8
A1) Bench press 135x30 185x10 205x4 Notes: *Bench press. 135 for 30 felt great, could have done maybe 4 or 5 more, felt much more solid than last week's 130x30. But that second set I'm just drowning. Next week I'm either going to: Just my 2cents. I would be inclined to increase the load on your 1st set -may be 145 x ? Let's see what you can achieve. Even if you attain 20 reps you will be able to increase your reps to the target of 30 reps over the coming weeks. Keep the second set as 185 and push for 15 reps. 3 rd set push for 10 reps. Hitting 30 reps with your first set takes some recovery - mentally and physically.
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 27, 2007 6:56:42 GMT -8
It might be of interest to mention how this system came to be.
I had been training what most would consider heavy, and intensly for decades.
I was almost 50 Years old and thought maybe I hadn't explored the area of "intensity" as deeply as I should, and certainly had never explored more than a single set limit to failure.
The example I use is the pulldown, since the progress in it was staggering.
Initially I was using 240# for a couple sets of 10-15 reps. Certainly respectable for my age and no one could accuse me of slacking.
So I began by adding a rep to each set whenever possible.
Withing a few workouts I was doing 240 x 20 and 260 x 10, so I added a set of 280 x 5.
I kept adding weight and reps, and making sure I had "completely recovered", between sets. Progress was sure and steady, and I was hitting PR's in every set, every workout.
I felt that starting too heavy, would be just too dangerous so I allowed the reps on the intial set (of some exercises) to rise to 30 reps. I was very motivated when I began hitting 260 and 280 x 30!!!
In fact, I was astounded. I was using weights I had not seen anyone use before for more than 10 reps, and I was doing 3 x as many.
But the stangest element was the effect all the set had on each other.
They all related. When I hit a certain number in the first set, I was assured of a corresponding increase in the last set.
This is why I initally refered to the system as "DIRECT Compensation" since the system provided a direct result to the results of the three sets, and the last "HEAVY" set of the previous workout, stimulated the result to acheive the first "high rep" set of the next session, which then bled into the two sets to follow.
It was like climbing a ladder.
But the greater element to that progress, was that it was far easier to ad a single rep to the first set, since the "ladder rungs" were closer together.
That is it allowed smaller gradient steps that caused improvements to be DIRECTLY transfered to the higher loads due to a continuum of strength, which is easily seen when one is on the program.
The point being that I didn't "start" the program by selecting loads to fit a rep schematic. The jumps and seperations naturally occurred from the begining loads.
So be careful not to select loads based on your "present" seperations and a particular rep ability, and allow them to naturally progress as your body and mind allow you to take these small continuos steps.
In seeing your present seperations (50#) it might be best to not worry about the "final and heavy" set as your focus, and use the first set as your ladder, to reach the second, third and even fourth set.
The system cannot be properly implemented if you view the final set as the "key" goal. It is not. It is the result of the preceding sets, and will always be the last set to move up, since it is DIRECTLY supported by the inital sets. enabling it.
Subsequently then, as stated above, the final set then creates such strength as needed to, upon the next session, achive a higher result in the intial set.
That is the relationship as I have seen it.
Hope that helps you "adjust" your sets, as well as your viewpoint to "settle" into regular progress.
I should also mention that most of my jumps (when I reached larger weights) in upper body were in the 50# - 30# area, and 90# - 50# in legs.
For example:
Pulldowns:
300# x 30 345# x 15 375# x 8 400# x 5
Squats:
365# x 15 445# x 8 465# x 5
These were "typical" jumps, but all were based on the results and ability on the first set.
And to be frank, I don't feel I even explored my maximums.
I remember towards the latter part of the program doing 405# x 18 in the second set of squats, and 495# for 6.
I dead stopped each of those sets on the last rep on the pins at the bottom of the rep.
That is, on the last rep I went down and paused for a couple seconds at the bottom and then completed the rep.
This is what is scary about the program, and since "I" am not some genetic marvel, and attained such results, I feel that it has a greater potential to those more gifted than I.
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 27, 2007 9:30:29 GMT -8
John, first let say I appreciate all the continued input you've been giving me. Now, I have been attacking EVERY set as if it was the most important. For whatever reason, the bench press has always given me problems. Maybe it's mental, etc., I just don't know. Because of the "direct compensation" effect each set has on the next, that's why I was thinking about tooling around with the second set of my bench press workout - I just felt that maybe the jump wast too much to allow for a productive 3rd set. We'll see how I do this week - I'm not placing any greater emphasis on the last "heavy" set versus set 1 or set 2, but I want to feel that I've given myself a chance to really reap the benefits of the "direct compensation" effect.
With that said, today's arm workout:
A1) Dips
BWx30*** BW+55x14* BW+87.5x7*
A2) BB curl
77.5x30* 95x14* 110x6*
B1) overhead 1-arm DB extension 22.5x10,10 B2) EZ reverse curl 60x10,10 B3) DB upright row 50x10, 10
Notes:
-When I put 3 *'s, that signifies an ALL-TIME best. Today with dips, I achieved a best ever 30 reps with my bodyweight. A single (*) signifies an improvement over the previous workout.
-I'm not "making excuses," but when I start add weight to dips, the dips bars I'm using start to shake with each rep. They are old and worn - the bolts that connect the dip-arms are so worn from years of use that they've made a groove that causes them to shake. this is making the weighted sets a bit tougher. I'm going to fix this problem this weekend so we'll see how I do next week - though I should note that I added 2.5# and a rep to that last set, so I was a good workout.
-curls felt better - I noticed, for whatever reason, that as I was nearing the end of the second set, my form really tightened up - I thought I was done at rep 12, but still cranked out 2 more with very good form.
Actually, today felt like one helluva workout. Just 3 weeks ago I failed on bodyweight dips at 23 reps. today I hit 30, that's incredibly motivating. I'm feeling tightness and am bound to feel the soreness tomorrow, but man, after every workout, no matter how brutal, I'm anxious to get to the next and beat my previous numbers. I'm loving the challenge.
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 29, 2007 22:46:02 GMT -8
PR's are always great, and when you start setting 1-6 each workout, it gets beyond exciting.
The fact that you are looking forward to your next session is a good sign. Many who train this hard (with REAL INTENSITY) burn out becuase they quickly reach a plateau.
I might also mention another aspect of the higher rep sets, is that you begin to learn how to make "lighter" (only in the beginning) weights act like heavy weights.
That is done by moving them quickly within the realm of safe form.
Accelleration and Decelleration can make the "effect" these lighter loads have on your muscles, actually greater than the heavier loads to follow.
The muscles don't have eyes, so they respond to the load force they experience as a stimulus.
So when you "partition" your reps into "first 10" and "second 10", and so on, they are by design, reps that allow you to experience loads generally only available with weights far heavier than you have ever handled before, and these forces come in a rather safe (and easily controllable) load.
The muscle has no choice but to "see" this accumulation of stimlus and "directly react" with compensation, based on those greater loads ;D
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Post by killroy70 on Apr 30, 2007 5:10:25 GMT -8
I've been attempting to move every rep of every set with as much force as possible (safely). I'll post a note about this below today's workout:
chest/back
A1) Bench press
140x30* 185x9 (-1) 205x3 (-1) 175x11
A2) Nuetral grip pulldowns
140x30* 180x15* 215x7*
B1) Incline DB fly-press
45x10 45x10
B2) Straight arm lat pulldown
80x10 80x10
Notes:
*after repping out 140 for 30 reps, moving the weight very quickly - even on some of the latter reps, as I was working in stages (4 reps...3reps...1....1...1), I might hold the weight at arms length, take 2 deep breaths, and attempt to explode the weight up - I was suprised at how quickly it was moving.
*once again, the remaining sets were severely lacking. Because 140 felt so good, I thought I might give 185 another try. As you can see from the numbers above, it didn't work out. When I look at the other exercises I've been performing, I noticed that the bench press is the ONLY exercise where there has been such a huge discrepency between the weight jumps from set 1 to set 2 to set 3. So, after my last set of pulldowns, which again felt great, I just threw 175 on the bar to see how many reps I could get. Now, I barely took any rest from the last set of pulldowns to this 4th bench set, but still repped out 11 reps. So, I already wrote in my log for next monday's bench workout:
145x30 175x15+ 200x5+
I think 30 lb and 25 lb jumps, respectively, will probably allow for a more productive workout. Again, we'll see.
Although frustrating, I don't feel burnt out, and all of my other execises are showing improvement.
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Post by John A. Casler on Apr 30, 2007 6:10:33 GMT -8
I have to smile when you say "frustrating" because even a this early stage, you are "hungry" for PR's in every set.
There will be days that you only get one PR in each group, but in reality "THAT" is really two, since the total output for the summed sets is also a PR.
I agree, at your strength level, smaller jumps should work better, and offer more steady progress.
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Post by carruthersjam on Apr 30, 2007 10:07:56 GMT -8
I've been attempting to move every rep of every set with as much force as possible (safely). I'll post a note about this below today's workout: chest/back A1) Bench press 140x30* 185x9 (-1) 205x3 (-1) 175x11 A2) Nuetral grip pulldowns 140x30* 180x15* 215x7* B1) Incline DB fly-press 45x10 45x10 B2) Straight arm lat pulldown 80x10 80x10 Notes: *after repping out 140 for 30 reps, moving the weight very quickly - even on some of the latter reps, as I was working in stages (4 reps...3reps...1....1...1), I might hold the weight at arms length, take 2 deep breaths, and attempt to explode the weight up - I was suprised at how quickly it was moving. *once again, the remaining sets were severely lacking. Because 140 felt so good, I thought I might give 185 another try. As you can see from the numbers above, it didn't work out. When I look at the other exercises I've been performing, I noticed that the bench press is the ONLY exercise where there has been such a huge discrepency between the weight jumps from set 1 to set 2 to set 3. So, after my last set of pulldowns, which again felt great, I just threw 175 on the bar to see how many reps I could get. Now, I barely took any rest from the last set of pulldowns to this 4th bench set, but still repped out 11 reps. So, I already wrote in my log for next monday's bench workout: 145x30 175x15+ 200x5+ I think 30 lb and 25 lb jumps, respectively, will probably allow for a more productive workout. Again, we'll see. Although frustrating, I don't feel burnt out, and all of my other execises are showing improvement. On your first set of your bench press you have increased the total weight lifted by 150lbs from the previous session (135lb x 30 to 140 x 30)
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Post by killroy70 on May 2, 2007 14:45:11 GMT -8
Jamie -
I was excited that I moved up 5 lbs in that first set, met my rep goal, and therebye increased the total weight lifted by 150 lbs on that set. But the reason I'm going to mess around with the weights next week for set 2 and set 3 is that I want the bench press workout to "feel right."
Is that vague enough? ;D
As John has pointed out and as I'm sure you know, this "Rogue HIT" training program is largely based on what John has termed "direct compensation," how one set affects the next which affects the next, etc. With certain exercises, I am "feeling" this principle at work.
For example - with nuetral grip pulldowns, which I've been using as my primary back exercise, I'm seeing great progress. It's hard to explain how a workout "feels right," but I keep a detailed log with notations next to each set performed. In looking 2 workouts back, I had the notation CTF next to all 3 sets. That stands for "Complete and Total Failure." Basically, I attacked those sets with everything I had and I achieved 135x30 (met goal), 180x14 (one rep short of goal) and 210x7 (met goal). Then, this past monday, I really geared up for my workout and repped out 140x30 for my first set, which left me pretty beat. However, come set #2, I felt strong, and pulled 180x15, met my rep goal, and left the notation NF, which stands for "No Failure." I probably could have done 1 more rep, but I met my rep goal and will bump up the weight 5 lbs next week. I also increaed my last set by 5 lbs and achieved my rep goal.
This is a great feeling. To have been beaten and whipped in the previous workout, only to increase the poundages on 2 out of 3 sets and beat my previous rep count on the other set. This is what I'm looking for.
And John - I'm glad my "frustration" makes you smile! ;D
Actually, the frustration simply stems from the workout "not feeling right," as explained above. In the bench press, when I've been coming to that second and 3rd set, the weights have felt heavy - I felt unprepared, and don't want to halt my progress.
Ok, today's leg workout:
A1) Squats
165x30* 210x15* 255x6*
A2) Reverse loaded squats
180x30* 190x20 (NF) 200x10 (NF)
Notes:
-again, my labored breathing seems to be the most limiting factor. When nearing the end of my 30 rep set and 15 rep set, I'm finding that it's tough as hell to grind out those reps, but those last few are still popping up nice and strong. I kept the weight the same on the last set and did one more rep than last week. John, as you stated, I don't want my lower back/torso to be the limiting factor here, and I can feel my lower back fatigueing quicker than my legs. So, I think next week's workout will look like this:
175x20 215x15 255x6+ (goal is 8 "solid" reps)
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