Question on Calf Training

[John A. Casler]

growl said:

You are about intensity, sir. There is no doubt. Did you change your calf training philosophy? I thought you liked the 10 x 10 approach for calves. Are all 5 sets now to failure? I don't believe the 10 x 10 was. Please correct me.

Jeff

Hi Jeff and Welcome.

No I still (personally) stick with the 10 x 10-15.

I'll post a bit more in another thread so not to sidetrack Ken's Training Blog

[John A. Casler]

OK, now we have a new thread to post to.

I find Calf Training needs some special attention.

Calves are a very interesting muscle group.

They are stimulated any and everytime you stand up, or take a step, so are somewhat "resistant" to normal stimulus.

The also have a rather short muscle action but are quite strong.

They also are about as far away from the heart, and lungs, as any major group.

And except when sleeping (horizontal) the are the most difficult body area to get blood to. It requires a long trip down, and the most difficult trip to return.

And lest I forget it, is there ANY muscle as far away from the brain? Just imagine the distance the motor signal must travel compared to the shoulder.

They seem to have a most incredible combination of strength and endurance, and are amoung the strongest and most enduring of muscles EVEN with all the circualtory and electrical distances.

That said, I find very little is known about the best way to train this very important muscle group, and so rely on my personal experience.

Years ago, I ended up training in World Gym on the same "LEG" day as Arnold and Reg Park.

So we all fell into a "rotation" on the Calf machine, one after the other.

The machine I think went to 550# and we added another 100# in plates.

In a rotation with these guys, you didn't want to back down the weight, so I used it just like they did.

We always did 10 sets, and anywhere from 15 - 10 reps. These were definitely HIT since the last rep was all that you could do.

We all started with 15 reps, and the reps dropped slowly as we moved through the sets.

The results were as good as one could expect, I never felt "overtrained" and we did this once a week.

[growl]

Thanks for starting this thread. I will try and comply with proper etiquette as I figure things out here.
I used to buy the magazine bullnuts which was basically if you weren't born with calves you will never have them and if you attempt anything at all, go high reps and train them often. I started seeing growth in my calves from training with multiple sets and in the rep range of 5-15 depending on what set I was in. I performed about 5 sets going back and forth quickly, using the same weight, performing one legged calf raises on a block. I built my calves from seemingly nothing and then didn't have to train them for a long time as I worked weaker areas. I trained them too often though and believe my progress could have been better.
I am working my volume up slowly now and will try 10 sets of one legged calf raises. I am just starting to train this muscle seriously again after many years. I only go to failure on the last set for break in mode. Next workout, I'll be up to 7 sets with every set 1-2 reps shy of failure and the last all out. The pump is way out there already and I'm already growing again. I can't wait to get up to 10 full sets. I'll then start taking half of them to failure and go from there. I'm only a bit careful because I have hurt myself so badly in the past on calf work that walking was next to impossible because of the stiffness and DOMS. When I go to failure there is nothing left. I don't fool myself as I know you don't either, John.

[John A. Casler]

Failure is a tough call with calves, since they fail so quickly due to the burn.

But my general focus on those 10 sets is to get them done as quickly as possible.

I do the set, walk/limp to the Workout Log enter the numbers walk back over and perfrom the next set.

I would guess, (but have not timed) the rest at 30-40 secs.

They are pumped enough tha it is "REALLY HARD" to get my Knee Supports off, since they must slide over my calves.

[growl]

Do you train the tibialis Anterior at all. This muscle adds somewhat to the beauty of the lower leg when developed along with the calf. I don't know if it's possible to noticeably change the girth of your lower leg with that muscle. What do you think?

[John A. Casler]

growl said:

Do you train the tibialis Anterior at all. This muscle adds somewhat to the beauty of the lower leg when developed along with the calf. I don't know if it's possible to noticeably change the girth of your lower leg with that muscle. What do you think?

Personally, I don't, since mine seems well developed and well defined for some reason.

But while on Calf training here are a couple thoughts:

1) I avoid seated calf raises where the load is large and leveraged and placed above the knee. I feel this is potentially injurious, since the knee is bent, meaning the ligaments are relaxed. The quads and hams are relaxed, as the Gastrocs are placed in a shortened position.

This all adds up to an unstable knee with a large leveraged load (usually ballistically bounced) with a muscle (soleus) that is super strong and in an efficient biomechanical leverage.

I know it was not good for my knees, if I trained it hard.

2) I think in Standing and Donkey calves, you should keep the knee straight but not "relaxed". I tense the hams, which causes the Gastrocs to "co-tension" in a stretched position.

3) Most of my calf sets start with the greatest "pre-stretch" I can get. I think one of the keys to good calves is the ROM from "pre stretch to just above midway" and not the "on the toes" ROM that everyone pushes for (although I don't ignore that Range.

4) Best Calf Exercises:

Standing Calf in its various forms

Donkey Calf in its various forms

Leg press Calves again in various forms

[killroy70]

Good info here on calf training. My calves have always been, essecially, non existant. Thinking about trying some of these training ideas on leg day.

Today's workout:

Bench press

170x19*
190x8
205x2
175x10

Nuetral grip pulldown

175x20*
210x9*
240x4*

Incline DB press 65x10, 10
DB row 80x10,10

Notes:

-As has been the usual, my first set of bench press was decent, but it was all downhill from there. I've been sticking to this exercise, but am thinking about switching now. Honestly, if I can do 5 deep reps in dips with BW + 95lbs, and I can bench press 205 for 5, good god.... I truly believe this is a form/stability issue. I can feel my elbows flare out once the weights get heavy in the bench. And though I make every effort (REALLY), I'm having a helluva time staying tight throughout the movement for multiple reps. I'm thinking about switching to DB bench. I've got a pair of "power hooks," which allows one to rack dumbbells between sets. This alleviates the wasted effort of sitting back with the DB's and hoisting them up for that first rep. I was thinkinga bout this after my set of incline DB press. I feel more stable and tight using DB's, and the reason may be that I am able to press the weight in a more "natural" way than with a fixed grip on a bar. My elbows don't flare when using DB's and I can really squeeze my lats and upper back when performing reps. So John, what do you think? Maybe switch to DB press for my core exercise and maybe 1-2 lighter sets of bench as my accessory exercise to try to work on my form?

[John A. Casler]

How'd you get out of your Log?

As far as the bench, I think you still have a break thru there.

I know you have 200 - 225 x 5 reps.

I am waiting for the "shirt report" since it alone can give you that added confidence in both Bench and Dips.

Is your grip thumbed or thumbless? I use thumbless because my tris feel stronger that way.

Somehow you need to get the DIP power harnessed into the bench.

How fast are you perfroming the benches? and how explosvely?

Watch this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEwpLMO6n7s

I use a much closer grip than this, but I use a short ROM like this, and elbows are almost on my lats,

Notice how Coleman does continuos tension "high drive", concentric, then relax and catch the weight, eccentric. This makes higher loads from smaller weights. That is how 200# stimulates like 350# and eventually leads to 350#.

killroy70 said:

Good info here on calf training. My calves have always been, essecially, non existant. Thinking about trying some of these training ideas on leg day.

Today's workout:

Bench press

170x19*
190x8
205x2
175x10

Nuetral grip pulldown

175x20*
210x9*
240x4*

Incline DB press 65x10, 10
DB row 80x10,10

Notes:

-As has been the usual, my first set of bench press was decent, but it was all downhill from there. I've been sticking to this exercise, but am thinking about switching now. Honestly, if I can do 5 deep reps in dips with BW + 95lbs, and I can bench press 205 for 5, good god.... I truly believe this is a form/stability issue. I can feel my elbows flare out once the weights get heavy in the bench. And though I make every effort (REALLY), I'm having a helluva time staying tight throughout the movement for multiple reps. I'm thinking about switching to DB bench. I've got a pair of "power hooks," which allows one to rack dumbbells between sets. This alleviates the wasted effort of sitting back with the DB's and hoisting them up for that first rep. I was thinkinga bout this after my set of incline DB press. I feel more stable and tight using DB's, and the reason may be that I am able to press the weight in a more "natural" way than with a fixed grip on a bar. My elbows don't flare when using DB's and I can really squeeze my lats and upper back when performing reps. So John, what do you think? Maybe switch to DB press for my core exercise and maybe 1-2 lighter sets of bench as my accessory exercise to try to work on my form?

[growl]

Finally got to all 10 sets today. Only the last couple were to failure. I trained calves after squats. I was very tired today, in fact, drained. I think the dieting was the culprit. I seemed to lose my pump in my calves toward the end. This is the first time I have trained calves with so many sets. I will work at it. I'm doing one legged calf raises with bodyweight (225lbs.), quickley going back and forth from one foot to the other (most sets 10-15 reps). Having worked up to the set volume slowly, now I can push the intensity on them all. I'll let you know how I respond to this calf training, John. My wife says they already look better. Big deal, right? It's what the girlfriend says that matters .
Jeff

[carruthersjam]

Bill Pearl wrote in his book Beyond the Universe:

...With that in mind, I designed a training program for calves
around what I knew the rest of my body responded to. I continued doing standing calf raises but increased the sets from three to fifteen... (five sets, toes facing out... five sets, feet straight... [1' sets, toes facing in.) I dropped the repetitions to twelve, nearly all the weight that I could handle and still do the exercise properly. I did these five days per week rather than three days.
results? My calves jumped fram 17 to 19 inches in three month The results were so encouraging, I decided to step out of the mold of doing things simply because others had done them a certain wa I decided to become more reliant on myself to find the corre, answers for the degree of physical development I was hoping.