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Post by carruthersjam on Jul 25, 2007 7:51:56 GMT -8
Today's leg workout: A1) Trap bar deadlift 245x30* 295x15* 345x5* A2) Reverse loaded squats 200x24* 200x19* 200x14 Wow. Grueling. Some very impressive numbers and gains - good stuff! In the reverse loaded squat do you anchor your feet?
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Post by killroy70 on Jul 25, 2007 8:08:08 GMT -8
Hey Jamie,
Deadlifting off of an elevated platform, attempting to PR every set, is tough! One thing I've noticed, as I told John, my torso feels much much stronger/stable. Honestly, although 345x5 isn't a really big number, I would've had a tough time getting that up a couple of months ago without a thick leather weight belt wrapped super-tight around my midsection. Now, I don't use anything. And I'm feeling the strain in my legs, glutes, upper back and lats, much less on my lower back than what I was previously used to.
As for Reverse loaded squats - yes, I anchor my feet. I lay an empty barbell across the base of the half-rack where I do these. I then put a couple of plates, lying flat, on both ends of the bar. there's just enough room to jam my feet underneath. It's real stable, and I'm able to get a good pull, starting with my feet all the way up to my lats.
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Post by killroy70 on Jul 27, 2007 4:45:37 GMT -8
Not a very good workout today. Dips are kicking my butt.
Today's arm workout:
A1) Dips
BW+45x20 (4th workout in a row) BW+85x9 (same as last week) BW+110x2 (1 rep less than last week) Reverse grip dips BW+mini jumpstretch band x 22*
A2) BB curl
105x19* 115x8* 122.5x3*
B1) DB upright row/high pull
82.5x10 82.5x10
B2) Overhead DB tri extension
75x10*
B3) EZ close grip reverse curl
65x10 65x10
-Wondering about dips. Perhaps I should jump back to the 30/15/5-8 rep scheme? 4 workouts in a row stalled at BW+45x20. d**n.
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Post by John A. Casler on Jul 27, 2007 12:06:24 GMT -8
It is unusual not to see a progression in one of the sets. There are several things to consider: 1) Rest between sets. If it is not sufficient, then you won't make progress 2) Focus. If you are not attacking these with complete focus, and have a "rep countdown" to that goal rep, then you can get stuck 3) Form. If you are attempting to use FROM (full ROM) then you may limit yourself 4) Speed. These need be done as quickly as possible. The Dip is not an ideal exercise for this application, due to the fact that even at lockout the muscle is engaged and to a degree occluded. But your progress has been excellent. 5) The 30 rep set "has" its purpose, and that is to allow those "smaller" step increments, so it is best used when strength gains slow down. You actually are at very low reps, when you do a set of 2-4 reps. I might think more of doing a 1-3 reps set 2 x a month on a schedule like this: 25/12/6 and then 2 x a month going for a single, or double. If you had to guess, what "rep speed" would you say you are using? It should be 1/1 or at the slowest 1.5/1.5 (except the last couple target reps) Don't be reckless and out of control, but the idea is to "manhandle" the load, and make it do what you want, to create the large safe forces, and big motor impulses. Not a very good workout today. Dips are kicking my butt. Today's arm workout: A1) Dips BW+45x20 (4th workout in a row) BW+85x9 (same as last week) BW+110x2 (1 rep less than last week) Reverse grip dips BW+mini jumpstretch band x 22* A2) BB curl 105x19* 115x8* 122.5x3* B1) DB upright row/high pull 82.5x10 82.5x10 B2) Overhead DB tri extension 75x10* B3) EZ close grip reverse curl 65x10 65x10 -Wondering about dips. Perhaps I should jump back to the 30/15/5-8 rep scheme? 4 workouts in a row stalled at BW+45x20. d**n.
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Post by carruthersjam on Jul 27, 2007 12:19:26 GMT -8
Not a very good workout today. Dips are kicking my butt. Today's arm workout: A1) Dips BW+45x20 (4th workout in a row) BW+85x9 (same as last week) BW+110x2 (1 rep less than last week) Reverse grip dips BW+mini jumpstretch band x 22* Prior to your target rep dips you may find it helpful to perform some type of warm-up. And / or make sure you wear the tight t-shirts / elbow wraps, John suggested. Just my 2 cents
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Post by John A. Casler on Jul 28, 2007 20:44:12 GMT -8
Hi Ken,
I had a little more time to review what you have been doing, and on the dips, your "progressing" yourself away from progress.
What I mean is it looks like the last couple sessions your focus, has been on the heavy set, and not the "drive engine" sets below it.
On July 14th you hit
BW+45x20* BW+85x9* BW+105x5*
The 85# 2nd set, and 105# 3rd set, should not go up, until the 45# set goes up.
Your next WO on July 20th
BW+45x20* (same - matched PR) BW+85x9* (same - matched PR) BW+110x3*
You only equalled your first and second set, but bumped the heavy set up anyhow, and that will stall your results.
Same for July 27.
The "ENGINE" that pushes the heavier weights up is the first and second set. They "must" go up for the heavy set to go up.
The Heavy set then is the engine for the first two sets. And since you went down on them you have stalled those results.
I hope that makes sense. I know it is "counter intuitive" to the old paradigm, but that is why this works so well.
To get back on track you need to go back to 105# and stay there until the lower sets push you to 6-7 reps.
The idea is to absolutely "SMOKE" that first and Second set, even if you only stay at 105 x 5.
you may need it to look more like this:
BW+45x25 BW+85x12 BW+110x5
So the secret is to Blast sets one and two.
You can't rush these. I know it is exciting and it seems right to add weight to all the sets, and in some exercises you can do that. Most you can't.
And on top of that, when you are dipping with 110#, that is like 310# when we factor in your BW. Man that is GREAT!.
But SMOKE those first sets and let them set the pace.
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Post by killroy70 on Jul 30, 2007 6:19:35 GMT -8
John, just read your posts this morning after my workout (my DSL has been down since saturday morning due to severe thunderstorms up here).
So, I would have worked my sets/weights differently this morning had I read your posts prior to training.
With that said, I almost don't want to even bother posting this morning's workout, as it was similar to friday's arm workout. But here goes....
A1) DB bench press
65x22 (down 1 rep from last week) 77.5x10 (same) 90x3* (should have stayed at 87.5 and gone for 5+ reps)
A2) Nuetral grip pulldowns
195x18* 225x9 (same as last week) 250x4*
B1) Incline BB press
175x8 (down 1 rep from last week, no second set)
B2) DB row
105x10 105x7
NOTES:
-I'm not lacking any "intensity of effort" on any set. I'm attacking the sets and know exactly what I'm trying to achieve to progress. On my first set of DB bench today, I wanted 24 reps since I got 23 the week before. I went after it, ripping through the first 15 reps, but then just burned out approaching 22 and failed on my 23rd rep. I'm getting plenty of rest between sets - probably averaging around 4 minutes, which means I'm getting a good 8-9 minutes of rest for the same muscle group since I alternate between antagonistic muscle groups. I'm repping as fast as I can while maintaining good form. I would say a 1:1 cadence is how sets 1 and 2 usually start out.
With the Dips example - I've been attacking that first set with everything I have - I'm aiming for more than 20 reps, but just can't seem to get over the hump. Now, I'm going to take how you told me to approach these sets as far as when to progress and apply that to this friday's workout. I was under the impression that if any one of the 3 sets met it's rep goal, to bump up the weight the next workout regardless of how the other sets performed. But what I'm getting from your last post is that succeeding set's weights should only be increased when the preceding set has achieved its rep/weight goal.
I don't "feel" overtrained or burnt out. I have a lot of enthusiasm and look forward to every workout, but when the first set of my core exercise regresses or doesn't improve over the course of several weeks, I'm starting to get frustrated.
Perhaps next week's bench workout should look more like:
65x23+ 77.5x10+ 87.5x5+
I would hate to think that I've platued. My pulling exercises have still shown consistent improvement (pulldowns and curls), but my pushing exercises have really stalled out (dips and DB bench).
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Post by killroy70 on Jul 30, 2007 7:05:44 GMT -8
Jamie -
I have been wearing the tight t's. And as far as a warm-up goes, I actually started warming up for dips 2 workouts ago. I perform some light DB cleans to warm up the shoulder, then do 10-12 bodyweight dips in the "pumpy," explosive fashion.
I'm going to re-vamp my entire upper body pushing exercises in accordance with what John suggested.
Maybe taking some weight off and upping the reps for a couple weeks will help to resume progress.
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Post by John A. Casler on Jul 30, 2007 8:28:39 GMT -8
John, just read your posts this morning after my workout (my DSL has been down since saturday morning due to severe thunderstorms up here). So, I would have worked my sets/weights differently this morning had I read your posts prior to training. With that said, I almost don't want to even bother posting this morning's workout, as it was similar to friday's arm workout. But here goes.... A1) DB bench press 65x22 (down 1 rep from last week) 77.5x10 (same) 90x3* (should have stayed at 87.5 and gone for 5+ reps) Yes, the 87.5 effort is from a paradigm that has you focusing on the heaviest set. In 9 months on this program I never did a set less than 4 reps, and those I could count on one hand. I did on occasion, add a 4th set of anywhere from a single to 4 reps, but it was not a regular set The sets all have to drive each other, but the first set, is the one that sets the pace. Not that you wouldn't push for "rep" PR's on the second and the third, but you would not push for "higher weight". Also remember, this is an "accumulative stimulus" training schematic, and it must remain dynamic. That is rep speeds, rest between sets, etc are according to need. As the loads get heavier, and the reps get higher, the rest periods get longer, and even the preset "mental" is tough. And the first set, is so exhausting to me, that I cannot move, for 15-20 seconds when the last rep has been completed. Remember, this "should be" the most intense effort you have ever used, or may ever intend to use. Regarding "form". That too is dynamic, in that the first set the reps are very quick, and they (in the dips and pressing actions) are focused on the Eccentric to Concentric loading. As you move to the heavier sets, the speed slows a bit. I think you might need to "back down" the DB Benches, and restructure the architecture. Remember too, that these require stabilizer strengthening to allow progress. And further more 65# Dumbbell Benches are very respectable for 20 reps even if you were only doing a single set. Something else is also evident. You and most I think, make better progress in the pulling exercises than the pushing exercises. This is because, the load during benches and dips is always present, and it causes stabilizers to be engaged even during a "pause" at the top to catch your breath. When doing pulldowns, or rows, you can actually catch a breath, and only the grip is fully engaged. So I would suggest looking at taking a small step "back" and then do something like this: 65 x 22+ 75 x 10 85 x 5 From here I would build the reps, not the weight. On this program many things happen that we are not familiar with. Also, a double edged sword is that you become "addicted" to regular and continued progress, and if you don't get it in a set or two, you are disappointed even though you made progress in 4-5 sets. In the beginning you might make rather large increases in weight, but the deeper you get into the program, the increases, are driven by the reps increasing on the first couple sets. A2) Nuetral grip pulldowns 195x18* 225x9 (same as last week) 250x4* These are all good numbers. I would still look at how low the reps are. Same thing here. I never did a 4 rep set in the pulldown except with an extra set with 400. NOTES: -I'm not lacking any "intensity of effort" on any set. I'm attacking the sets and know exactly what I'm trying to achieve to progress. On my first set of DB bench today, I wanted 24 reps since I got 23 the week before. I went after it, ripping through the first 15 reps, but then just burned out approaching 22 and failed on my 23rd rep. I'm getting plenty of rest between sets - probably averaging around 4 minutes, which means I'm getting a good 8-9 minutes of rest for the same muscle group since I alternate between antagonistic muscle groups. I'm repping as fast as I can while maintaining good form. I would say a 1:1 cadence is how sets 1 and 2 usually start out. With the Dips example - I've been attacking that first set with everything I have - I'm aiming for more than 20 reps, but just can't seem to get over the hump. Now, I'm going to take how you told me to approach these sets as far as when to progress and apply that to this friday's workout. I was under the impression that if any one of the 3 sets met it's rep goal, to bump up the weight the next workout regardless of how the other sets performed. But what I'm getting from your last post is that succeeding set's weights should only be increased when the preceding set has achieved its rep/weight goal. Sorry to be so "unclear" but in many ways, this is still "uncharted" territory. If a set "feels" ready, of course don't hesitate to make progress. It is also relevant that you be aware that you may still be settling into the "jump increments". That is, some exercises are 20# between sets, some might be 40#, and even that needs to have some flexibility. I don't "feel" overtrained or burnt out. I have a lot of enthusiasm and look forward to every workout, but when the first set of my core exercise regresses or doesn't improve over the course of several weeks, I'm starting to get frustrated. Perhaps next week's bench workout should look more like: 65x23+ 77.5x10+ 87.5x5+ Do what you think is best, but do not worry about dropping back, like I suggested above, and "re-setting", on this one. I like 10# increments on db's (which is really 20# overall) on the jumps between sets. I would hate to think that I've platued. My pulling exercises have still shown consistent improvement (pulldowns and curls), but my pushing exercises have really stalled out (dips and DB bench). The slowdown is due (I think) to the reps being to low, and still searching around for the right weights. And as I said, the pushing exercises, seem to have "less" potential. If I would have made the same improvement on my bench (which I couldn't be cause of a separated shoulder) as I did on my pulldown, I would have been benching 400+ There are many complex issues to how this system works. You may have noticed that I mentioned stabilizers. While many just assume that they will progress along with the other weight loads, many, if not most of the time, "THEY" are the limiting factor in all lifts. This system, is designed to stress them at the key ranges (usually the SSC) of motion with large, multiple stresses, which then conditions them to have greater endurance. On the bench, and the dips, your stabilizers, are "key". When they fatigue, you cannot perform at your maximum. Back off (as above) and then move through this and do so "slowly" (but still with intensity and drive, as always.
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Post by killroy70 on Jul 30, 2007 11:42:59 GMT -8
John, I think you're dead-on in one observation of how I've been approaching my workouts - I've definitely been emphasizing adding weight above adding reps. Perhaps this is because I'm so used to programs with fixed rep schemes where adding weight is the only goal. I'm going to restructure some of my workouts and drop some of the weights (where necessary) and increase the reps.
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Post by John A. Casler on Jul 30, 2007 11:53:55 GMT -8
I am sorry I didn't identify this sooner for you.
The problem with this medium is that we can't see all the workouts and numbers, from each of them to compare, and my memory doesn't retain all your previous weight and rep acheivements.
I have to figure out a way to be able to post all the workout perfromances so the progress can be clear.
I tried last night, but this system formats colums into a mess of "letter soup".
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 1, 2007 5:35:31 GMT -8
Today's leg workout:
A1) Trap bar deadlift
255x30* 305x15* 355x5*
A2) Reverse loaded squat
200x26* 200x20* 200x15*
Notes later
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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 1, 2007 6:32:32 GMT -8
Today's leg workout: A1) Trap bar deadlift 255x30* 305x15* 355x5* A2) Reverse loaded squat 200x26* 200x20* 200x15* Notes later Nice numbers on the TBDL. Keep in mind, that the 355# x 5, is not your 5 rep limit, it is your 5rep limit "AFTER" doing the first 2 sets, these are designed to have a cumulative effect. On another list, there were comments that led me to beleive they didn't understand this. For example, maybe on another type of program where the "approach sets" were of a lower, less fatiguing type, the weight might be higher on the last set, but ultimatley the progress would be limited, by that heavy set. If you simply "match" your best all time reps on the last set, you actually would have "set" a new record. It would be like matching a 100m sprint record "after" a workout. So if you were to prepare for the final set, like you were in a competition, it would be substantially higher. Just wanted to add perspective. Now that said, I have say, that once I matured and was well conditioned under this program, it would have been hard to imagine that set being too much higher. I mean I was hitting 400# for 5-6 reps in the PD, and 505 x 5 reps in the squat, and I'm not sure I could have done too much more. I also found some good discussions about HIT vs HVT on BB.com. Although few have the understanding of what we are doing, since it doesn't fit the mold. The rather interesting thing is many promote a CNS fatigue theory, and argue intensly, that this type of training will "bury" the CNS. They also call up research that they feel proves it. And they feel they have expereinced such "CNS fatigue". So, either we are all "genetic" freaks or they are incorrect. I know I never experienced "any" limitations. None. Nor have I seen it on any of those who have tried it. In fact, I feel one of the "key" elements of the system, is the CNS excitation (generally called Post Activation Facilitation) that actually drives the system. I will admit, that I was taking a daily "phenylalanine and tyrosine" supplement, which is said to help replentish "neurotranmitters", but I doubt that had a significant effect. It was a powdered drink mix from Durk Pearson and Sandy Shaw (LIFE EXTENSION book) called "BLAST" for its "mental alertness" quality.
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Post by carruthersjam on Aug 1, 2007 7:41:10 GMT -8
The rather interesting thing is many promote a CNS fatigue theory, and argue intensly, that this type of training will "bury" the CNS. They also call up research that they feel proves it. And they feel they have expereinced such "CNS fatigue". Hi John could you possibly post the research regarding "CNS fatigue" or the links to these discussions. I think rogue HIT is a long, long way off from causing CNS fatigue.
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 1, 2007 7:45:43 GMT -8
I may have tried a supplement similar to what you mentioned. It was called "Neurogain" from EAS. This was a few years back and I didn't really notice much of any effect, so I ditched it.
Now, I understand what you are saying with regards to approaching sets and, ultimately, the weight used in those sets. I've conciously adjusted my focus away from "what weight is on the bar" more to improving my first set, and subsequently those sets to follow. With today's workout, my god, those first 2 sets of TBDL were so tough. As I stated in a previous post, after my first 30 rep set of DL's, I had to lean against the wall for a good 20 seconds just to catch my breath. My heart was beating out of my chest and my lungs were burning. I waited a few minutes, repped out my reverse loaded squats, took another 3-4 minute break, and did my second set of DL's. Now, after I finished my first set, I felt whipped! However, 8 or 9 minutes later, when I began my second set, I felt strong - same thing for my last set. Actually, 355x5 today felt better than 345x5 did last week.
I'm also going to note again, as I did in my last post regarding DL's and my back, I felt SOLID. I mean, having always lifted using a weight belt in the past, I'm amazed at how stable my upper torso feels DLing beltless.
I used a program a while back (maybe 2 years ago) from hypertrophy-research.com. The program had one perform 20 reps/exercise, but one rep at a time. You would perform 1 rep, re-rack the weight, wait 2-15 seconds or so, depending on how heavy the weight was, perform rep 2, etc.. Eventually, I was using pretty heavy weights, resting around 10-15 seconds between every rep. With weighted supinated grip chins, I was using around 80 lbs around my waist, doing 1 rep at a time, up to 20. However, when, one day, I decided to see how this transferred to my 10-12RM, I had NOTHING. My multi-rep strength had decreased substantially.
I want to be strong. Not strong in my 1RM, or my 5RM, or whatever. I want to be strong across a wide spectrum of rep ranges. I want to be able to lift heavy for 20-30 reps, but also to be able to push/pull really heavy weights for 3-5 reps. I like training these different rep ranges - I feel like I'm increasing different capacities simultaneously.
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