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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 1, 2007 11:50:53 GMT -8
Hi John could you possibly post the research regarding "CNS fatigue" or the links to these discussions. I think rogue HIT is a long, long way off from causing CNS fatigue. Hi Jamie, I hadn't visited that site for some time, until yesterday. Generally these who quote such research are found in the HIT vs HVT threads. This one being an example. forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3245561&page=16
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 3, 2007 5:14:05 GMT -8
My nutrition is in line, I'm not sick, or sleep deprived, and it appears I am regressing. Perhaps I need a week off. Or, perhaps, I have indeed platued.
On my arms day, as noted in previous posts, I've been stuck at BW+45x20 for weeks. Today, the plan was to shoot for greater than 20 reps with BW+45 and then adjust the next two sets' weights to allow higher rep counts. Well, I barely eeked out 17 reps with 45lbs. Curls weren't so bad, but not "good." I was planning on lightening up the first set and shooting for 30 reps. So, I put 95 lbs on the bar, and repped to 16 - couldn't get up the 17th rep. I racked it, waited around 30 seconds, and did another 8 reps.
Is it time to switch exercises? Take a week off?
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Post by carruthersjam on Aug 3, 2007 7:43:40 GMT -8
My nutrition is in line, I'm not sick, or sleep deprived, and it appears I am regressing. Perhaps I need a week off. Or, perhaps, I have indeed platued. On my arms day, as noted in previous posts, I've been stuck at BW+45x20 for weeks. Today, the plan was to shoot for greater than 20 reps with BW+45 and then adjust the next two sets' weights to allow higher rep counts. Well, I barely eeked out 17 reps with 45lbs. Curls weren't so bad, but not "good." I was planning on lightening up the first set and shooting for 30 reps. So, I put 95 lbs on the bar, and repped to 16 - couldn't get up the 17th rep. I racked it, waited around 30 seconds, and did another 8 reps. Is it time to switch exercises? Take a week off? What's your current bodyweight?
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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 3, 2007 15:11:53 GMT -8
Hi Ken, I doubt you have plateaued, but I also found that progress on the upper body "pushing" exercises seemed slower, and not as great, as the pulling. Since I cannot see your actual exercise performances, it is difficult to tell what might be slowing you down. I recall similar occurances happening on occasion. Problem is, we get so used to the "regular" progress, that the occasional less than PR on each set gives us pause. As far as the Dips, I have not had anyone use dips as their arm exercise, but it certainly is a good one. That said, it is also VERY Hard since you cannot actuall do a "rest/pause" like you can on a curl, or squat, or even a pulldown, to get that last rep. Now here is what I see. In the Dip so far you went from: Dips Start BWx23 BW+35x15 BW+50x13 BW+75x8 Dip PR's present BW + 45# x 20 BW + 85# x 9 BW + 110# x 3 So what does this show? I think it shows excellent progress, but still creeping over to High Weight/Lower Reps, rather than allowing the opening sets to DRIVE the progress. So lets also look at curls. Starting BB curl 65x30 80x19 95x10 105x6 Most recent PR's 105 x 19 115 x 8 122.5 x 3 Now again I think we have the same thing. Nice progress (for example your 19 rep PR went up 25#, but the last set got pushed up to a 3 rep weight. Unless we are training for PowerLifting 5-6 reps should be the minimum. Those weights also lead me to beleive your form might be limiting you a bit. Again since I can't physically see you do the exercise, I can only guess as to the form. Also the final rep or two in the curls is generally a rest pause. Stop take a couple breaths, and finish the reps. However, it would seem that you even though you have made good progress, you have lost momentum on those two exercises. You might find it better to take a week off and a step back and ramp back up again, but be prepared for smaller jumps and increases. The danger of this kind of program, is that some exercises, which are more favorable or that you might not have PR'd in before, are fast responders, and others need to travel up slowly. In most cases, this is a "slow" small step, increase program. You have around 50 workout a year per body part. You want to make "little" steps in each of those. if you went up 1/2 lb per WO, you'd see a 25# increase. You have done that in some exercises in 1/3 that time. So, either back off or lay off those workouts for a week (I would stay with the ones that are still on track) Then start up again, but with the small steps idea, which is what the program is built on. My nutrition is in line, I'm not sick, or sleep deprived, and it appears I am regressing. Perhaps I need a week off. Or, perhaps, I have indeed platued. On my arms day, as noted in previous posts, I've been stuck at BW+45x20 for weeks. Today, the plan was to shoot for greater than 20 reps with BW+45 and then adjust the next two sets' weights to allow higher rep counts. Well, I barely eeked out 17 reps with 45lbs. Curls weren't so bad, but not "good." I was planning on lightening up the first set and shooting for 30 reps. So, I put 95 lbs on the bar, and repped to 16 - couldn't get up the 17th rep. I racked it, waited around 30 seconds, and did another 8 reps. Is it time to switch exercises? Take a week off?
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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 4, 2007 11:45:23 GMT -8
Hi Ken, Had a couple follow up things to mention regarding your slow down in the pushing actions. While I have been using and working on this system for several years, one of the elements of an "advanced training system" is increased stimulus. This level of stimulus has a tendency to "walk the line" of Over-Reaching and or Over-Training. And the possiblity of this occuring is not consistant across "ALL" exercises, it can be found on those who are more highly conditioned than others, and or have larger ROP (rates of progress) than others. I have posted below a small amount of info from this site: www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.htmlI think at an advanced level one need be aware of these conditions, what causes them, and specifically how to handle them in ROGUE HIT. While it is perfectly natural for all of us to "hit it" hard on each of our exercises, and push the envelope of progress as much as we can, it is also relevant that we are able to identify the line crossed into Over-Reaching, and how to carefully "ride that line". If we push that envelope too hard, we will stall progress, and that is why I thought you might find this interesting, and useful. I can see, that in order to be able to advise people how to use CC Rogue HIT, that this needs to be included, in the progression schedules. See Below: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Well first lets define some terminology. What most of us call overtraining is really over-reaching. Overtraining is more like a disease then a temporary state. For 95% of us, "over-reaching" is what we're really referring to when we say overtraining. Over-reaching-is pushing yourself into a mild state of fatigue with your training. Regression in performance sometimes does occur during an over-reaching period, yet performance rebounds back very quickly, usually above and beyond it's previous level, with a short period of rest or lowered volume (within days). It can be good or bad depending on how you use it. Overtraining- occurs when you chronically over-reach for months or years on end. This leads to performance regression that can take months to recover from and is associated with multiple and sometimes permanent endocrine disruptions. Although there are some athletes who are chronically overtrained and don't realize it (distance runners, bodybuilders, and some basketball players come to mind), most athletes don't ever reach a true overtrained state. Another important term is Under reaching. Under-reaching- occurs when you intentionally "take it easy". This is like taking your foot off the gas in your training intentionally. It also can be good or bad depending on how you do it. Now let's start with a few key claims I'm going to make. First, let me state that from my observations, the reason many people train hard and consistently and don't make the gains they feel they should, is because they spend too much time over-reaching and not enough time under-reaching. Notice I said "consistent hard trainees" there. That statement doesn't apply unless you train both hard and consistent.
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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 4, 2007 11:47:50 GMT -8
As a quick follow up, we are actually very fortunate that you ran into this, and it makes the program more effective when we address it in a way that allows us to stay just under the radar of OR.
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 6, 2007 9:12:29 GMT -8
I've read about planned overeaching in the past. In fact, I have a DVD called "Adam Archuletta, Freak of Training," it shows adam going through various parts of his workouts with his traininer Jay Schroeder. Unfortunately, they don't go much into his program design, just kind of show what exercises he performs and what methods/techniques they focus on. Anyway, Jay talks about using planned overreaching to allow adam to supercompensate and accelorate his gains, etc.
Now, after reading your posts, I decided to dial down the intensity (as it relates to the weight on the bar) but try to keep up the "intensity of effort." So, I'm bumping up the reps on all exercises. If I find that I have entered a physical state where taking some time off completely from training is neccessary, then I'll do so. But, for right now, let's see how I do on focusing on driving up the first set and not "worrying" too much about how much weight is on the bar for succeeding sets.
Today's chest/back workout:
A1) DB bench
60x28 70x16* 80x8*
A2) Nuetral grip pulldown
165x27* 195x15* 225x8* [the PR (*) for sets 2 and 3 in pulldowns indicates a personal best after performing an initial set for a PR. My previous best with higher reps on that first set was 150x28, followed by 190x14, and 220x7]
B1) Incline BB b ench
155x12 155x10
B2) Incline chest supported DB rows
60x10 60x10 (just for pump)
write more later
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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 6, 2007 9:52:00 GMT -8
Hi Ken,
The "over reaching" info is not to imply that is our goal, but to show that with this type of program it is possible.
You are approaching the point where you need to take "small step" PR's.
The Heavyweight Alexev was a Master at breaking the Worlds Records with these small steps.
The body has to "adjust and recover" to the point that we are not "overreaching" too much to allow continued progress.
If we push the weights used up too fast, we are bound to hit the wall sooner.
I know it is a simplification, but the system is like a "car jack". We simply jack it up a "small" notch, each session in as many of the Primary Exercise Sets as we can.
The body adjusts to these "small" increments in all areas (muscle, motor, mental, etc) more readily.
If you develop a "sense" about what jumps to make, then your body is always ready, and as hard as the sets are, the progress continues.
The other thing to recognize, is that your progress will not be "equal" or "even" for all exercises.
I mentioned that you are more of a "puller" than a "pusher". That means that you may progress faster and higher in the pulling exercises.
As an advanced trainee, one needs to be able to "wrap around" that difference and apply the right progressions to each exercise.
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Post by carruthersjam on Aug 6, 2007 10:45:28 GMT -8
Hi Ken, Now here is what I see. In the Dip so far you went from: Dips Start BWx23 BW+35x15 BW+50x13 BW+75x8 Dip PR's present BW + 45# x 20 BW + 85# x 9 BW + 110# x 3 [/quote] Let's not forget that Ken's BW has increased significantly over the duration of the program. 10lbs+ LBM gain?
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 6, 2007 11:04:33 GMT -8
My current bodyweight is around 205lbs. I've gained a total of around 7-8 lbs of bodyweight during the program (approximately 4 months). Now, I should probably get my bodyfat re-checked, as I feel that I "look" leaner than when I began the program. So, it's possible that I've gained around 10lbs of lean body mass. Now, for me, that is HUGE. I've been stuck at between 190-198 for as long as I can remember. The last time I had a bodyweight that was consistently over 200 lbs was when I played football in college. I topped out at 215 after seeing the teams nutritionist, who determined I had to eat anything and everything to gain. And gain I did - though I put on a decent amount of fat. To be honest I looked more bloated and out of shape at that weight than anything.
And John, I'm very much in tuned with what you are saying. I am most definitely a "puller," and don't expect all execises to progress at the same rate. Also, I plan on taking small steps, making sure all sets are driven out of the success of the set before it. For example, next week's DB bench workout will look something like:
60x28+ 72.5x15 80x8+
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 8, 2007 7:59:37 GMT -8
Today's leg workout
A1) TBDL
265 x 30* 315 x 15* 365 x 5*
A2) Reverse loaded squat
200 x 27* 200 x 22* 200 x 16*
going to begin taking smaller increments in TBDL. Next week I'll probably attempt:
275 x as many as possible 320 x 15 365 x >5
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 8, 2007 12:02:22 GMT -8
Today's leg workout
A1) TBDL
265 x 30* 315 x 15* 365 x 5*
A2) Reverse loaded squat
200 x 27* 200 x 22* 200 x 16*
going to begin taking smaller increments in TBDL. Next week I'll probably attempt:
275 x as many as possible 320 x 15 365 x >5
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Post by killroy70 on Aug 10, 2007 5:04:56 GMT -8
I switched exercises on arm day:
A1) Close grip bench press
120x30 145x17 170x10 (will begin noting PR's next workout)
A2) EZ bar curl
85x10 - stripped 10 lbs - finished 75x20 85x15 95x9
B1) Decline DB extension 35x15 40x12
B2) BB high pull 135x10 135x10
B3) EZ close grip reverse curl 80x10 80x8
Notes:
-although the poundages aren't high, I was very happy with close grip bench presses because they "felt" great. What I mean is, I performed these in the manner in which I had previously been "trying" to perform my regular grip bench presses. I used a thumbless grip, slightly angling my hands on the bar to aid in keeping my elbows tight to my sides. I also concentrated on keeping my forearms perpendicular with the floor by attempting to press the weight "toward my feet" instead of "straight up."
-I decided to switch from dips to close grip benches for several reasons. For one, John has mentioned several times that dips are a "good" choice, but not an optimal one due to the fact that there isn't any point in the ROM that one can get any "rest." Also, I wanted to perform an exercise where I could fully concentrate on moving the load - with dips, there were times, especially in the higher rep, fast repping sets, where I had to try hard not to "swing" and get off balance. With benches, all effort was geared towards moving the weight. It felt good. And lastly, I think I've gained a better understanding, through trial and error, of how to approach my sets - weights - and reps using John's philosophy. I'm sure I have much much more to learn, but I want to see how I progress with a new exercise applying what I've learned.
-one more thing - although my tri's were really worked in dips, so were my chest and shoulders to a pretty decent degree. And although one's chest and shoulders are working in teh close grip bench, I felt the vast majority of the stress in my triceps.
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Post by carruthersjam on Aug 10, 2007 9:55:15 GMT -8
I switched exercises on arm day: It felt good. And lastly, I think I've gained a better understanding, through trial and error, of how to approach my sets - weights - and reps using John's philosophy. I'm sure I have much much more to learn, but I want to see how I progress with a new exercise applying what I've learned. The below quotes are relevant: Selye quotation: "The goal is certainly not to avoid stress - stress is a part of life. It is a natural byproduct of all our activities .... But in order to express yourself fully, you must first find your Optimum stress level and then use your adaptation energy at a rate and in a direction adjusted to the innate structure of your mind and body. It is not easy ... It takes much practice and almost constant self-analysis" (1). Mel Siff wrote: continue to deny the reality of individuality, specificity, plasticity, inconstancy and variability and your training and knowledge will bar you from standing on Everest, instead of nibbling canned food in the foothills.
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Post by John A. Casler on Aug 10, 2007 13:20:51 GMT -8
Hi Ken, It is true that some exercises, lend themselves to greater progress. I also find the pulling actions a bit more productive than the pushing actions. In your case that was also true in the TBDL (pulling) compared to the Squats (pushing) While I think you have more "results" available in the dips, there are no special laws to changing exercises within the routine, at any time. And you might find that 3-4 months on one will move the other, up even further too. And, there is also the "idea" that one could implement this program with a Dogg Crapp twist. That is, you might have SIX training schedules each based on your 12 favorite exercises (that is the Dogg Crapp twist) and you rotate the schedules each week so that you have 2 full weeks between like sessions. So one week would be Dips (for triceps) and the next Close Grip BP. That would be an interesting experiment. I am jealous of you being able to DIP heavy. I must find a Chinning Dipping Station to put in my gym (as well as the money to buy or make such) It is all about you. I do think that you may (if you haven't already) find that it is difficult to not use the wide rep spectrum, and the push for PR, in your training from now on. I switched exercises on arm day: A1) Close grip bench press 120x30 145x17 170x10 (will begin noting PR's next workout) A2) EZ bar curl 85x10 - stripped 10 lbs - finished 75x20 85x15 95x9 B1) Decline DB extension 35x15 40x12 B2) BB high pull 135x10 135x10 B3) EZ close grip reverse curl 80x10 80x8 Notes: -although the poundages aren't high, I was very happy with close grip bench presses because they "felt" great. What I mean is, I performed these in the manner in which I had previously been "trying" to perform my regular grip bench presses. I used a thumbless grip, slightly angling my hands on the bar to aid in keeping my elbows tight to my sides. I also concentrated on keeping my forearms perpendicular with the floor by attempting to press the weight "toward my feet" instead of "straight up." -I decided to switch from dips to close grip benches for several reasons. For one, John has mentioned several times that dips are a "good" choice, but not an optimal one due to the fact that there isn't any point in the ROM that one can get any "rest." Also, I wanted to perform an exercise where I could fully concentrate on moving the load - with dips, there were times, especially in the higher rep, fast repping sets, where I had to try hard not to "swing" and get off balance. With benches, all effort was geared towards moving the weight. It felt good. And lastly, I think I've gained a better understanding, through trial and error, of how to approach my sets - weights - and reps using John's philosophy. I'm sure I have much much more to learn, but I want to see how I progress with a new exercise applying what I've learned. -one more thing - although my tri's were really worked in dips, so were my chest and shoulders to a pretty decent degree. And although one's chest and shoulders are working in teh close grip bench, I felt the vast majority of the stress in my triceps.
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